Curse

Flame · Jul 03, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Hey guys, I have an idea that solves the problem. You can have runes, skills, and upgrades be unlocked through PvE, like they are now, but also have a way that, if you PvP repeatedly, you get the option to unlock them without having to go through PvE. Oh wait, they just implemented that.

Tellani Artini · Jul 03, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame

Hey guys, I have an idea that solves the problem. You can have runes, skills, and upgrades be unlocked through PvE, like they are now, but also have a way that, if you PvP repeatedly, you get the option to unlock them without having to go through PvE. Oh wait, they just implemented that.

You still have to get an RP character to all the towns to find the priests of balthazar that unlock all the skills. Without the Amnoon and Droknar's skills, you'd come up kind of short. On that note, is it really too much to ask for someone to complete the game once to be competitive in PvP?

john little · Jul 03, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyeeo

Hehehehe I see no complaints about the game mechanics of Rock Paper Scissors

only becuase there aren't forums for it

. I'm sure some people wouldn't like the luck element and the fact that there is no 'real' skill involved.

'rock sucks, paper for teh win'

'lolz, n00b, scissors look cool'

'whats the best technique for hiding your hand?'

'he scammed me, trying to sell me hammer saying it beats all three'

if anything, the PvE grind helps balance out those that have spent a lot of time playing PvE without much experience of PvP against those that have been playing lots of PvP without much PvE. It's just the 'hardcore' gamer mindset that they have to have everything to be competitive that unbalances things.

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame

Hey guys, I have an idea that solves the problem. You can have runes, skills, and upgrades be unlocked through PvE, like they are now, but also have a way that, if you PvP repeatedly, you get the option to unlock them without having to go through PvE. Oh wait, they just implemented that.

As someone else said, this clearly shows that you haven't actually tried doing this at all. I'm a PvE fiend, I have five relatively active characters (all played within the last week, anyway), and I'm very happy about the new PvP unlocking. But it's clearly a hack and still requires lots of PvE.

You can't get most elite skills using the PvP faction points unless you make it to Droknar's Forge. The Priests don't give up everything, and they only exist in PvE-only cities. This wasn't clear in the update, but I decided to check it out to see what was actually done. =)

I don't know why they didn't just put the Priests in the arenas, so that PvP-only players could actually buy from them. Instead, to get even basic skills, you still have to at least do all of the Pre-Academy stuff.

Azreal911 · Jul 03, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

didn't someone suggest they have an arena called Fairland? where that's the only arena where you can a UAS character and no where else. You won't be ranked but hey it's a fair battle cause you have everything and all the skills. Just used one of the two arenas they closed up would be good enough. You can use this for testing builds and stuff. But i'm ok with them at least making you play the entire game once, wouldn't kill you guys would it? I plan on going through the pve two more times once i'm done with my first one, the other running parallel only with RL friends with teamspeak though so it's slower going, (one has kids and he pauses alot "oh wait my kid is crying! better tend to it or wife will be pissed", that's one bad hex spell) LOL.

Iteicea Destroidium · Jul 03, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

What you consider to be "fair" PvP IMHO is stupid. How is it fair if someone who has learned the game mechanics, learned to play his/her build, and worked hard at unlocking skills and items for his/her use in PvP, has someone who just bought the game recieve all of the same items and skills? Let's say you have this "fair" PvP you want, new people will still be beat to the ground, why? Because they will not understand the game as well as those who have been playing for a long time. If we had this arena where you have all skills and all items...then WTH is the point of playing in other arenas. All PvE would be dead, except for those who enjoy PvE, and you would have a very, very unhappy player base, because they spent all this time unlocking things, and now suddenly someone can buy the game and have everything they have. So, no, this "fair" PvP would be the furthest away from fair you could get.

Also, keep in mind that this is an MMORPG, MMO's are skill based to an extent, GW more than most, but if you want to log in for the first time and have everything in the game be based on skill and not levels or items, then go and play an RTS, or FPS, just dont whine about the current PvP system being unfair.

PippinTook · Jul 03, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

They have to unlock the skills too if they want to go by anything other than the templates they give you, and most arn't that good.

Rusch Vokirk · Jul 03, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Ok... moron...
The whole purpose of skill based games comes from very old games. Take D&D, the mother of all RPG's. Same idea, smaller extent. The idea, is that a player learns his own strategies, concocts his own schemes, and uses them together strategically. That makes a good player. If you think you should be able to have all the hoohah from the get-go, you don't belong here. MMORPG's are made the way they are for a reason. And I agree with Iteicea, if you want everything to be player skill based, go pick up a twitch game, and leave us to our evil skill improving ways. If that doesn't work, try playing the game, you may actually learn to play your build and not get killed.

johnnylange · Jul 03, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Sorry but I think its unfair how you find players... mostly warriors using max damage weapons or weapons for the underworld or wearing max AL Armor they got by having a mate run them to Drokan's.

PvP matches should have weapon limits... and also armor should have LVL requires to them... to stop anyone from just doing a cheeky run to get better armor.

I've taken out warriors using nothing but hexes and life siphons. It's all about the strategy you use, I don't always win either. You win some, you lose some.

johnnylange · Jul 03, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Why? Because I want the game to be fair according to in-game considerations? If I needed to practice more, this would be stupid. According to my own complaint, if I want to win, I should instead grind for a while so I have better armor, in-game skills, and runes than other players, and multiple sets of armor for switching in the middle of the fight, etc. Then I wouldn't need to practice more.

A lot of players have asked for things like unlocking all possible items in PvP. This is an alternative to that which would still provide 100% fair, competitive gameplay. I'm sure players would still complain, but it seems like the thing that serious PvP players complain about the most is that you need to grind in order to be on a level playing field. Well, let's create a level playing field, even if it's not "unlock everything right away". The current system can exist alongside it.

Like I told the other person... strategy! You can have the best of everything and still die in a flash. Use your skills, some of them ignore defense, like hexes. I've taken out some warriors using only hexes and life taps and sometimes i've died. But I learn from that and try counter strategies. Also, what a joke! You don't bother switching armor during battle!

JoDiamonds · Jul 04, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iteicea Destroidium

What you consider to be "fair" PvP IMHO is stupid.

Clever of you to reply in general, vague terms to everyone, thereby insulting anyone with any interest in fair PvP.

Quote:

How is it fair if someone who has learned the game mechanics, learned to play his/her build, and worked hard at unlocking skills and items for his/her use in PvP, has someone who just bought the game recieve all of the same items and skills?

That's not what I want. I've never suggested that. Thanks for your random arguments against things you think people have said. They are very constructive, and I'm sure Arena Net will implement your suggestions soon.

Quote:

Let's say you have this "fair" PvP you want, new people will still be beat to the ground, why? Because they will not understand the game as well as those who have been playing for a long time. If we had this arena where you have all skills and all items...then WTH is the point of playing in other arenas.

Uhh. Of course new people will lose. But at least they will know why they are losing. Right now, it could be because they don't have as much stuff, or because they are terrible. This is true for new players and old players alike.

Note that I'm not talking about an arena with all skills and items unlocked. Just any fair arena. For instance, an arena where players can only choose from the PvP template characters currently provided.

Quote:

All PvE would be dead, except for those who enjoy PvE,

Isn't that a good thing? Why are people who don't enjoy PvE playing PvE? Wouldn't it be best if the only people playing PvE were the people who enjoyed it? What's the benefit of forcing people who don't enjoy it to play it?

I don't agree with the idea that everyone would be unhappy, because I think most people enjoy PvE. But the argument that it would be bad if the only people playing X are the people who enjoy playing X... well, of course. That's ideal, and exactly what Arena Net should be aiming for.

Quote:

and you would have a very, very unhappy player base, because they spent all this time unlocking things, and now suddenly someone can buy the game and have everything they have. So, no, this "fair" PvP would be the furthest away from fair you could get.

I'm the original poster of this thread. At no point have I suggested that "fair PvP" requires "fully unlocked PvP". I explicitly said that I'm looking for something besides "access to everything" in the very first post of this thread. The two ideas are mutually exclusive, and you appear to have randomly come in and attacked the name "fair PvP" when you think that it's the same thing as "fully unlocked PvP". At least figure out what you are targeting.

Quote:

Also, keep in mind that this is an MMORPG, MMO's are skill based to an extent, GW more than most, but if you want to log in for the first time and have everything in the game be based on skill and not levels or items, then go and play an RTS, or FPS, just dont whine about the current PvP system being unfair.

Bite me. I'm not whining. I don't want any existing PvP systems taken away, just new ones added that are fair.

The reason I created this thread is to ask for ideas for creating "fair PvP" which are anything besides fully unlocked PvP. Come back if you come up with anything constructive.

Anyone else who wants to rant and rave against "fully unlocked PvP", please find another thread to rave on. It's not like there's a shortage, and I'm happy to go argue with you on those threads. If you have a useful idea for making PvP players happier with a fair system, instead of just saying people are stupid, please speak up.

JoDiamonds · Jul 04, 2005, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

this sounds like another UAE thread

Sigh. Then I haven't been clear, obviously. I seek a fair PvP system which is something besides an Unlock Everything button. There is no reason at all for "Fair PvP" to require "Unlock Everything".

Anyone else have some constructive ideas?

There have been some useful ones here, but more ideas are always better.

Loviatar · Jul 04, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Sigh. Then I haven't been clear, obviously. I seek a fair PvP system which is something besides an Unlock Everything button. There is no reason at all for "Fair PvP" to require "Unlock Everything".

Anyone else have some constructive ideas?

There have been some useful ones here, but more ideas are always better.

to be honest the other people yelling *fair and level* have always defined it in the end as some version of unlock everything very fast if we cant get it now.

as a side note what about my idea to improve the templates as a step in the right direction?

Rieselle · Jul 04, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

I've butted heads with JoDiamonds before on this topic in another thread, so I'll just repost what I said there :P

I think every class primary should have 6-8 templates available for them. (ie, rather than a list of templates, you pick your primary and a sub menu of templates open up.) The templates should be checked regularly by ANet...if some of them prove to be really useless and unpopular, they should see what the community is doing and stick it in. Template characters should be completely fixed and aren't able to be modified. They should include skill, rune, armour and weapon set ups.

Template characters can be used in tombs/arena as normal. But add a special team arena (similar to droknars arena) only available for Template players. (maybe later when they have time, also add a Template only GvG option, for those "My guild vs. yours. Skillz only. Right now." sort of grudge matches :P).

Thus people who want a totally fair, skill-based match can go play a "fighting game" style arena where you pick a character from a list, and then play against other people who have picked from the same list. The planning and building revolves around what templates the members of your team pick. The individual component of build construction is taken out of the equation (play normal pvp for that).

This accomplishes the fairness whilst still leaving the normal game as a bigger, better, funner thing to do. By having the fair pvp portion be fairly limited, it keeps the normal game interesting in its own way, for both pvp and pve players.

And if you're not satisfied with that, then you really -are- just looking for UAS. :P

arredondo · Jul 04, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

I know EXACTLY what I want, and no amount of "templates" will satisfy me. A huge part of GW is the planning process. Taking that out and forcing players to choose to wear someone else's dirty laundry (no matter how wonderful it may be for someone else to wear) is worse than the system we have now.

First it was forcing PvE (which STILL must be done BTW). Then it was forcing PvE-style unlocking. Now its suggested to force templates. Hey, I have an idea... just like PvE players aren't forced into a play mechanic they might not care for (competitive PvP), how about giving the same courtesy to PvP players for once?

Full UAX por favor. And get rid of Attribute Refund Points in town.

Aranador · Jul 04, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

I think 'fair' would be pretty simple

In the lvl 10 arena - if your armour is better than the 150 gold armour - you get treated as having no armour

In the lvl 15 arena, the cut off is a bit higher

In the lvl 10 arena, if your weapon is higher than half the max possible damage for that weapon type, it is treated as minimum damage

In the lvl 15 arena, the weapons can be 75% of max.

Alternatively - anytime a team gets more than 5 consecutive wins, a GM is called to check out the toons. If there is evidence of 'forge runners' (IE max armour) then that account is deleted.

I am all for being harsh as can be - the leet 15k armoured max sword wielding panzies in the lvl 10 arena need to be forcibly edjucated that the point of the game is not to stroke your ego at the expense of the 'noobs'. Unfortunately the psyche of that type of player can not appreciate how pathetic they are for taking pride in their victories. It would be like an apache pilot painging a kill sign on the side of his chopper for wasting an old lady in a wheel chair (but sir - it was an armoured chair!). It demonstrates no skill or capability at all.

On the other hand, on the rare occasions when I managed it, taking out a team of poorly played droknor rushers with my trusty 150 gp armour and stuff certainly did feel good. Still, does winning a victory against someone who is obviosly so bad at the game that even with overwhelming advantages the still loose any more of an acomplishment? Its like claiming a victory because your opponent tripped over his shoelace and impaled themselves on their sword.

Sigh - when I think about it - the only 'fair' you will ever get in the game is in the HoH type arena, where the gear is equal and its the skill of the guilds that matter - the trash gets tossed aside, and the real battles commence.

Good thing I like PvE as well as PvP.

Iteicea Destroidium · Jul 04, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Clever of you to reply in general, vague terms to everyone, thereby insulting anyone with any interest in fair PvP.

If they believe that it is fair PvP, then yes, it applies to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

That's not what I want. I've never suggested that. Thanks for your random arguments against things you think people have said. They are very constructive, and I'm sure Arena Net will implement your suggestions soon.

That was a suggestion how? Good reading...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Uhh. Of course new people will lose. But at least they will know why they are losing. Right now, it could be because they don't have as much stuff, or because they are terrible. This is true for new players and old players alike.

Most players know why they are losing...that is either them not understanding or knowing the benefits of their build, or someone in their party being a moron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Isn't that a good thing? Why are people who don't enjoy PvE playing PvE? Wouldn't it be best if the only people playing PvE were the people who enjoyed it? What's the benefit of forcing people who don't enjoy it to play it?

PvE is part of the game, this game is no different from any other MMO in the aspect that you need to PvE to reach the end goal of better PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Bite me. I'm not whining. I don't want any existing PvP systems taken away, just new ones added that are fair.

which in turn would make PvP unfair...ok that makes perfect sense

/sarcasm off

Thomasuwoo · Jul 04, 2005, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Dear Arena Net:

I propose that some form of entirely fair PvP be added. By "fair", I mean that there is no possible in-game advantage to a player who has been playing longer. A player who has just purchased GuildWars should be on equal footing in this form of PvP to anyone else.

I don't even care much what form this is. I'm not asking for access to everything; that's not remotely required to make a fair venue. Maybe you go to an arena, enter the mission, and get a random premade template character. Maybe it's a form of "limited" where players draft skills beforehand. But fair PvP doesn't exist in Guild Wars, yet, and it should.

(I'd made a more concrete suggestion elsewhere, but I'm really more interested in the concept in general. This is my concrete suggestion: http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27486).

I encourage anyone else who would like to see some kind of fair PvP to speak up, and concrete ideas on how to do it are welcome. Let Arena pick from them and make something good. =)

I'm afraid i don't agree with this. There is a part of me that wants this to happen but then i remebered writing all the guides I have for this site so far, All the I can't beat my mirror posts and all the Rangers are underpowered posts.

To really get to know your character, I find thatit's good to work at it, meet the enmies in Pve, se how they use their skils too. If every skills was avalible to everyone at the start I'd be worried about a "noob influx."
There'd be so many players out there with all the skills but not knowing how to best utalise them. If you wern't already Rank 3 (I am by the way) I dread how hard it would be to find a group.

I have been playing since day one and I consider myself alot better off then a player who has been playing for 2 weeks. Not because I've unlocked everything (I'm probably only at about half skills, Not a single superiour rune, and my max hp buff on a wep is 21) but because I've fought and designed counter builds for almost type of character and stratagy out there.

Yes It has been hard work and has taken time but I belive the current balance that Area net is striving for is going so well. With each new update they get closer and closer to archiving the "perfect balance." The faction system is such a welcome adition, the traders of all types, the new collectors. I'm afraid that a change of this magnatude would throw off the curent balance.

Sorry to go againt the flow of the topic but this is my personal feeling on the matter and I would like to see it voiced.

JoDiamonds · Jul 04, 2005, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I'm going to have to assume that Iteicea Destroidium is merely trolling, since he isn't responding constructively to anything and appears to be merely trying to piss me off. Piss me off once, shame on you. Piss me off twice... naw. I'll just write you off as a loss, instead.

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

What about more than twice, you didn't say anything about that.